As a reporter on race, parenting and reproductive health, Dani McClain has spent decades listening to leaders of the Reproductive Justice movement, like Loretta Ross. In this conversation, host Luna Malbroux explores what thought leaders have expanded McClain's understanding of reproductive justice and what personal and liberatory lessons she's uncovered as a national reporter covering reproductive health.
The Louisiana Abortion Fund (formerly the New Orleans Abortion Fund) is a community fund that assists community members as they overcome the economic and geographic barriers erected to prevent them from accessing abortion care. By providing low-barrier financial support for abortions, plus support for travel and childcare, LAAF invests in the liberation of all Louisianans. LAAF works to center Black people, Indigenous communities, people of color, queer folks, and immigrants, because when society’s most marginalized are free, all be free.
Special thanks to Seratones for The South Has the Answer's theme song, "Get Free"
Dani McClain reports on race, parenting and reproductive health. McClain's writing has appeared in outlets including The New York Times, TIME, The Atlantic, Harper's BAZAAR and Colorlines. Her work has been recognized by the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association, the National Association of Black Journalists, Planned Parenthood Federation of America, and she's received a James Aronson Award for Social Justice Journalism. McClain is a Puffin Fellow at Type Media Center and a contributing writer at The Nation. She was a staff reporter at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and has worked as a strategist with organizations including Color of Change and Drug Policy Alliance. Her book, We Live for the We: The Political Power of Black Motherhood, was published in 2019 by Bold Type Books and was shortlisted in 2020 for a Hurston/Wright Legacy Award. She was the Cincinnati public library's Writer-in-Residence in 2020 and 2021.
Luna Malbroux, Founder and Chief Vibe Officer of Joy Channel is an experienced facilitator, educator and leader on creating inclusive spaces, Luna is most notably, a self-described ‘joy evangelist’, who believes that fostering belonging, communication, connection and fun (yes, fun!), is the missing link in many approaches to diversity, equity, justice and inclusion initiatives. A skilled storyteller, her practices include using empathy, humor, and personal narrative to help build group dynamics and consensus. Luna has years of experience guiding small to large national organizations in building more authentic inclusivity to cater to the needs of elected members and clients.
She is also an award winning comedian, writer, musician and public intellect whose work has been featured in KQED, NPR, The Atlantic, PBS, Glamour magazine, and more. She loves jamming as a member of her band, The Moon and The Man, and most proud of her special abilities to make a hearty pot of gumbo, appropriately initiate a slow clap that erupts into a round of applause, and persistence in roller skating even though she always falls down.
Dani (00:00:04):
We can be honest that we're also just friends, right? Like, this is it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Luna (00:00:08):
You're honest.
Dani (00:00:09):
I just wanna name that like, we're we're friends. We knew each other personally before knowing each other professionally. And we're connected through Cincinnati. And so the professional connections have just been like the cherry on top cuz we got to know each other, like listening to music and playing games and getting to know, and like having fun. So
Luna (00:00:26):
I know, and I, I, I think that I'm like, I've gone deeper as I've known you into the depths of your work , which is really cool to be like, that's my friend ,
Dani (00:00:40):
Right? Same. I was like, I didn't, ok. I didn't know Luda did all this kinda thing. Great.
Luna (00:00:47):
girl. We would just, and then I, I find myself like, uh,
(00:00:55):
I find myself being radicalized by your words. No, you know, it truly, um, yeah. That's like, that's what I'm sitting with in this conversation with you . It's like, as I read some of your work, I, I just, it stirs up so much in me so often and, um, I like sit with it. And I think that's part of, that's part of what I'm holding even in wanting to have this conversation with you and lift up like your work and your view and your perspective around this, um, is the way that, like your work, like, activates something in me. So
Dani (00:01:36):
Thank you. That really means a lot to me. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:01:40):
You can't
Speaker 4 (00:01:50):
Go on ahead and make yourself comfortable because this is, the self has the answers. I'm your host Luna Malrow here. We get to laugh with Laugh, that's short for Louisiana Abortion Fund. And we get to Kiki with the thought leaders, organizers, and champions of a reproductive justice movement that includes liberation for all of us Today we are joined by Danny McLean, a writer who reports on race parenting and reproductive health. McLean's writing has appeared in outlets like, I don't know, the New York Times Time, the Atlantic Harper's Bazaar and Color Lines. Her work has been recognized by the National Lesbian and Gay Journalist Association, the National Association of Black Journalists, planned Parenthood Federation of America, and she's received a James Orson Award for social justice journalism. Welcome, Danny.
Dani (00:02:45):
Sure. Well, first I wanna just say thank you for the invitation. I am a big Luna fan and, um, it's been really incredible to watch you build Joy channel and just, you know, kind of, um, learn more, understand more about all the value that you add to the organizations that you work with and the support that you offer. Um, I think a lot of people who don't do organizing or, or report on it or, you know, observe it in the ways that I do, um, don't understand how important infrastructure is to the organizations and how much additional capacity organizations often need in order to pull off the incredible, um, and complex and nuanced work that they do. And so I just, it's been really great to watch you build this organization, um, and fill this need. So thank you for inviting me on to have this conversation with you. I'm really honored.
Luna (00:03:44):
Oh, you're welcome. Now I, I received that and I'm so grateful for that. And I'm a Danny McLean fan also. . Yeah. Yeah. So what are the worlds you inhabit? What are your worlds?
Dani (00:03:58):
Well, I am a writer and a journalist. Um, and I, um, so that's one of my worlds. And, you know, we'll, we'll dig deeper into what I cover. I, I cover, I've been covering reproductive justice organizing. Actually, I think it's fair to say that I, I was like really deeply covering reproductive justice organizing from I'd say the 2012 through maybe like 2020. Um, and then I wrote a book about parenting that kind of, um, called We Live for Louis, we, the Political Power of Black Motherhood that pulled together a lot of the reporting on reproductive justice organizing that I'd done in the preceding years. That book came out in 2019, and then my, the focus of my beat shifted to parenting, which is part of the reproductive justice framework, and we'll talk about that. Um, I also, more and more these days, I'm a, I'm an editor.
(00:04:53):
I'm a consulting editor. I work with authors who, um, need support in the, in their nonfiction books that they're pulling together. Um, and that's been a hat that I've worn that in ghost writing for the past two years has been a huge part of my professional work. Um, I'm also a mom. I have a six year old, six and a half year old. She would say six and three fourth year old, six and three quarters year old is how she's putting it these days. Isabelle. Um, I'm very close with my family of origin. Um, I support my mom and her kind of like tremendous health recovery that she's been in for the past couple of years following, um, a stroke that she had. And, um, right now I'm living in the house that I grew up in, in the house that my mom grew up in, the house that my maternal grandfather grew up in.
(00:05:43):
I'm in a neighborhood that I have a lot of family ties to, um, community. I walk outside, I see my neighbors who I've known since I was born. Um, that is definitely, I inhabit the world of Camp Denison. It's very important to me both, um, you know, contemporarily and, and historically, um, and I think I inhabit the world of the Mind. Like I love, I just read two really great books back to back. And like that was a reminder of like how, um, much I love the world of ideas and how much I inhabit the world of ideas, even when they're not necessarily, um, like the ideas that I consider my areas of expertise or the ideas in which I, you know, spend a lot of time playing. I just love to know what people are thinking about. Um, so those are some worlds, those are some of my worlds that I inhabit.
Luna (00:06:36):
Hmm. Those are some beautiful worlds. Thanks for thanks for sharing that and naming that. Um, I've been asking people this question of like, elders, because specifically when I think about, you know, the, like movements led by black women, and leaders, we, we center our elders. We uplift like the folks that we've learned from along the way and, you know, whatever that means to us. So I'm curious about, are there any like elders or ancestors or even like ideas in that world that you feel like have shaped your perspective and shaped who you are?
Dani (00:07:16):
Yeah, there really are. I mean, the first that come to mind are my family members, some of whom are ancestors now. Um, I am part of a family that is, that has very matriarchal leanings. Um, I was raised by a single mom. My mom has seven sisters, um, no brothers, seven sisters. And my aunts have been a huge part of my, um, of raising me and, you know, supporting my mom in raising me. Um, I have two aunts in particular who I just wanna name Pamela McLean and Yvonne Copeland, who I was very close with, who passed away. My Aunt Pam died in 2015. My Aunt Yvo died in 2020. But they were very much, um, you could call, like you could call them another parent, you could call them godmothers, but they were people who, um, I was very close to and remain. I try to remain close to them now that they're in the ancestor realm.
(00:08:15):
My mom is, um, an elder who's very important to me. Um, and my, you know, I have other, I have, you know, um, aunts who are living, who are, who are incredible supports. Um, and so I I'm very grateful for them. Just wanna lift them up as well. Um, you know, intellectually I've had a lot of elders who have been really important to me. I, the, one of the first names that came to mind was Loretta Ross, um, who is one of the four mothers of reproductive justice. And I've had the pleasure of interviewing her, um, several times. I think, um, I've just learned so much from her intellectual work and also from the stories that she shared. I remember I wrote a story, I wrote a, a long feature for the Nation magazine. It was years ago, I wanna say that was in 2015.
(00:09:04):
It was about, um, kind of the history of like, uh, coercion in, um, like, um, you know, coercion and control in, and reproduction in ways that specifically long acting reversible contraception has been used to control fertility in, um, you know, black and brown, um, and poor communities. And one of the stories, one of the, an not, well, one of the personal stories that I lean on was one that Loretta Ross had shared. Um, so, you know, there are people like Loretta Ross and Dorothy Roberts who are just like these incredible intellectual giants who I, my work doesn't exist without theirs because I'm, I have, you know, I've had to learn so much from them about the framework and, and, um, have benefit benefited so much from their research and their thinking. Um, I also wanna add a name. Sh she's not, I don't, people don't really see her as being in reproductive justice work more in drug policy reform work.
(00:09:59):
Deborah Small, brilliant. Someone who was a mentor to me at my first job out of college, which was at Drug, one of my first jobs outta college, which was at Drug Policy Alliance. Just like someone who has done so, black woman who has done so much to, um, change the, you know, get us to start thinking about, um, drug use and drug abuse as a public health issue as opposed to a criminal justice issue. And mm. Um, just like so brilliant and, uh, I, I'm thinking about her because she really is a mentor to me. Um, and then, uh, Lynn Paltrow, who, who ran, who founded and ran National Advocates for Pregnant Women for many years, just I think retired. And I saw some pictures of Deborah at Lynn's retirement party, and it just like reawakened in me how important Deborah's thinking has been to me when I was writing my book. Um, you know, I really leaned on thinkers like Audrey Lorde, um, uh, I, yeah, definitely Audrey Lorde and Patricia Hill Collins for their intellectual contributions around thinking about family and motherhood. Um, there are so many, but these are just some of the names that come to mind.
Luna (00:11:08):
Mm. Oh, thank you. Yeah. What a gift. Is it? I think it's a, I think specifically there's so much in the space of like diversity, equity, inclusion, or reproductive justice or abortion access, where like, so much work and wisdom has been done by black women and it gets co-opted.
Dani (00:11:30):
Oh, yeah.
Luna (00:11:31):
And, and I just, I feel like it's a, a practice to kind of talk to that I wanna continue to center, to be like, where you get your ideas from
Dani (00:11:40):
For sure. That black women is the hashtag goes right. Like,
Luna (00:11:44):
Which black woman did you get your ideas from?
Dani (00:11:48):
Uh, yep. You know, very important.
Luna (00:11:54):
Um, yeah. So thanks for naming those names and lifting all those up. And especially like, you know, the black women in our lives, like the folks in our lives that love us and center us, like those elders also have wisdom that is so insightful to all of these things too. So I'm so glad you brought in, you know, your mother and your aunts and and shared with us about them. So thank you. Yeah,
Dani (00:12:17):
Of course. I mean, I always say, you know, I was really politicized, um, in college. Um, I went to Columbia, I was at Columbia University and New York City in the mid nineties, late nineties. And of, and I was very politicized there. I was studying with people like Manning Maribel and Barbara Fields and like these incredible minds, you know? Um, but it, the reason why, you know, and I was reading Robin Kelly and, but the reason why that work landed is because what they were saying had already been born out in my family life. Right. It was like, and suddenly there was just a language too, and a framework for, um, the ways that I had already seen race and class and gender play out in my family and the way that it had already been, like, you know, kind of articulated to me in a much like folksier and less academic way. But that's, I always think, like my pol in, in some ways, my formal politicization started like when I was in my late teens and college, but the ground, the, the groundwork had already been LA because of the family that I was born into.
Luna (00:13:19):
Mm. That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I think similarly, like, I I just said the other day, someone was just like, how do you teach about intersectionality? And I'm like, I understood that before I knew what it was I grew up in Exactly. In a rural town. And I was like, um, I'm experiencing a lot of effects because I'm, I'm growing up in , a low income neighborhood that's rural. I'm a dark-skinned black woman that's queer in Louisiana. I understood what intersectionality was before I, I knew the language for it.
Dani (00:13:55):
. Exactly. It's like, thank you to the brilliant, you know, legal mind, Kimberly Crenshaw for like, naming it and, you know, do all the work that she's done to like, bring that way of understanding things into, you know, mainstream consciousness. And, but what you said is exactly right. Like, for so many of us as we learn these concepts, and I think this is true of reproductive justice and we'll get into this, but it's just like immediately clicks. It's just like, oh, I'm so glad somebody named this. I'm so glad that somebody put language to what I already know to be true.
Luna (00:14:25):
Mm. So let's, yeah, let's get into that. How would you, how would you describe reproductive justice or define what that is as a framework
Dani (00:14:35):
And Yeah. Well, I'm gonna, I will get, I'll, I'll answer that question by just kind of explaining how I came to, um, this understanding. So, you know, um, I have had this like circuitous career, this circuitous route through my career where I've done a bunch of things. I, I, you know, early on I was working in the drug policy reform world, and, um, I was a news, I went to journalism school. I was a newspaper reporter, and then I was working at this organization called Color of Change Running campaigns. Um, and then I had been at Color of Change for about four years. And I, um, I really missed journalism. And I, um, I wanted to go back to being a journalist, but I didn't wanna go back to newspaper reporting. I, I love the idea of being an independent journalist, being a freelancer. And I got very lucky, and I got a fellowship from a place that used to be called the Nation Institute.
(00:15:26):
Now it's called Type Media Center. And I got a fellowship specifically to start reporting on reproductive. What was, how did they say it? I think they said reproductive rights. I think it was like, I think my, my beat was supposed to be reproductive rights and sexuality or something like that. Gender reproductive rights and sexuality. So I was like, okay, well, so this was 20, this was at the end of 2012. So I was like, okay, well, abortion rights, like, I'm not really immersed in this world. I'm not, I don't really, I don't know, but let's start, let's go. And so, you know, I've always gotten my story ideas by like, what is ac, what am I actually curious about? Like, what do I actually not understand? Right? Like, because otherwise you get bored. Like, I wanna be driven by my own curiosity. So I was like, I wanna, you know, um, why is it that when we, like at the abortion speak outs and this idea of like shouting your abortion and the kind of like, you know, um, the kind of like, not pride, but the way that when, when I see people claiming like, I had an abortion, like abortion on demand without apology, it's always white women.
(00:16:35):
And I was like, why, why? I'm so curious. So I started, um, basically I reported a story on abortion stigma. And like, I wanted to lay out why the conversation around having an abortion is so different for black women than it is for women, for white women of privilege. And like, the way I wanted to understand like, how are we talking about abortion differently because we're having abortions, right? But mm-hmm. , we don't claim, like, and again, this is, I just wanna contextualize this. This is 2012, right? But we don't claim it in the same way. Yeah. And so I ended up writing this story. It was like a short little, probably 800, maybe a thousand word piece for ebony.com. This is when like Kierna Mayo and Jamila Lamu were running ebony.com. It was like, man, I missed those days. That was such a good .
(00:17:24):
I remember those days. I do remember those days. Yeah, man, it was so good. So anyway, I wrote this story, and so in the course of reporting that story, um, you know, I, people, people will be very generous with their time. So I was interviewing people like, why do you think we talk about abortion differently? And people were like, this is about stigma. Like, there's a whole body of research on this. And then that was how I got introduced to the whole idea that of, of, uh, reproductive justice, because a lot of the black women and, and black queer folks I was interviewing for this story really wanted me to understand that there was an active movement that was grounded in reproductive justice organizing. And that that's something different from reproductive rights and, and, you know, from d reproductive rights, right? So what I learned at that time was that in, uh, 1994, a group of black women, um, got together, I think it was a, I can't remember the, the conference, but a lot of them had just come back from the, the Beijing Conference on Women UN Conference on women in Beijing.
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And they, um, created this reproductive justice framework which asserts the right to have children, the right to not have children, and the right and the right to parent the children that we do have in safe and dignified and healthy communities. So once somebody broke that down to me, it just like blew the lid off everything for me, because of course, the right to not have children, that's what reproductive rights focuses on, right? Contraception and abortion, the right to control our reproductive, um, you know, lives. And, and, and so that when we don't wanna have, when we don't wanna carry pregnancies, determine we don't have to, or when we don't wanna get pregnant, we don't get pregnant. And that makes a lot of sense to me. But I also, um, knew that as, especially as black people with our, the, you know, histories of being enslaved and, and not, and having our reproduction controlled and having our children sold away from us and not being, you know, having our children be somebody else's property, that there's a lot of pride, um, around having kids mm-hmm.
(00:19:28):
mm-hmm. and loving our kids and raising our kids. And that there's also a conversation about, um, the child welfare system that's related to a conversation about controlling our reproductive lives. And there's a conversation about, um, you know, why, you know, uh, poisoned water in Flint, Michigan and not being able to give your kids clean water or have access to clean food, you know, good foods for your kids. That's also a reproductive justice conversation. And I realize that for, you know, 25, 30 years, black people say, you know, women of color, I, we really, you know, black women were the four mothers. Um, but, but queer, you know, people of color, women of color, queer folks of color have grown this framework because it's what speaks to their experiences of having kids, raising kids, or, you know, not caring pregnancies to term when that's not what's makes sense for their, for them as individuals and for their family lives. That's my understanding of the reproductive justice framework. And, um, you know, it's been a lot of learning from, um, some of the people who I've mentioned who are, who help create the framework and, and who have just done such a beautiful job of, you know, explaining it. And then of course, also doing the organizing work. Um, in that tradition.
Luna (00:20:45):
You know, what I think about with the, I, so I was in a conversation and one of another conversations for this podcast with AJ and was reflecting around, like the messaging you heard growing up. And I think about for a long time, it didn't sit right in my body, primarily white women and people as they were advocating for reproductive justice. Our rights would be like, people just need to take birth control. Take birth control. And I always was like, what is in this birth control and how is it affecting my body? And I've always been very like, cautious about it because of the history of how like black women and black bodies in particular have been experimented on. And like all these different things I've just been like, what is, but there's like a disconnect that I had growing up and the way even when people were like pro-choice or pro rights, would not actually do the work of educating folks fully about their body and about like, all the things that contraception, you know, different types of contraception, how it might affect the body. And I think that is part of reproductive justice as well. Absolutely. It's like the expansiveness of that education, understanding like what healthcare truly is and like Yeah. That we all need access to that. Um,
Dani (00:22:02):
I totally agree with that. I mean, it's, it's interesting cuz that story that I did, that feature that I wrote on long acting reproductive contraceptions, like one of my favorite stories I've ever done, it was so long ago, but, you know, it, it really, because one of the things that's at issue, so when we're talking about that, we're talking about IUDs basically, right? We're talking about IUDs and implants mm-hmm. . Um, and so nor plant, like, there's this history of Nor Plant where it was basically, um, like really pushed on low income, particularly black women, um, I believe in the 1980s when it first came out. But like, what is important about, um, larks, as they're called long-acting reversible contraceptives, is that they're, they're physician controlled. Like when you get an i u D and you can't just pull it out when you get a nor when you get an implant in a hormonal implant, you don't take it out.
(00:22:49):
You're reliant on your clinician to help you. And so that adds a layer of consideration, um, because that control on the part of the clinician has been abused in the past mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . So that's just like, I don't know, I just feel like that is such an interesting thing to think about. And, you know, I ta I remember interviewing, uh, women who had had their children as teenagers who said like, right at their six week, you know, um, at their six, this, the appointment that you have six weeks after you deliver, they were told like, you need an i u D. And this was in the two thousands. Like, we're not talking about mm-hmm. , we're not talking about like decades ago. Right. And so, yes, we all need to know about these histories of reproductive coercion and how they continue into the present.
(00:23:36):
But I remember, you know, on this topic of like the pill that it was just kinda like, oh, it's time to get on the pill. Like we're, you know, every, you know, when you talk to your friends, like, we're sexually active, like, let's get on the pill. And I remember getting on it, um, I was probably like 20, and I was like, this is making me sick. Like, I'm sick. Like I'm not well mm-hmm. or like, I don't wanna have sex anymore, and I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to, if I don't, I Oh, so is that the birth control? You just don't wanna have z Like, and I remember just being like, I don't think this is good for my body. And then I remember talking to, you know, a friend who was like, yeah, I cry all the time now. Like, I'm so depressed. I'm just like, I'm not for this. But then I also feel like you're not supposed to talk about hormonal birth control not being, not working for you because there's something, it's seen as like anti-feminist or something to like question the science , or I don't even question the science. I'm just like, this is not for me. This is not the effects that I wanna have on my body.
Luna (00:24:30):
Yeah. It's interesting because I feel, I, I feel very similar in having similar conversations. And in my twenties, um, with, and white women would be like, what? Like, don't que like, kind of like, don't question the science. And black women would be like, of course you don't question that science. I'm not, I'm not, I don't know. It's in that either. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's just a different understanding and different reality. And I think this is, I think this is a great anecdote. Um, and it's not the only thing, but it's the, it's one of the ways that it is a different, that reproductive justice is a different conversation than a conversation centered on abortion. Mm-hmm. Access solely are choice are abortions now abortions forever. Mm-hmm. Abortions on demand. Right. Any time, which is like a different conversation. And I, I, I can understand why those tactics and strategies and, and language is used and technically when you, when you think of, uh, all of this, it includes like a reproductive justice includes abortion access. Right. You know, it's inclusive of that. And I think that there are so many conversations that are being had from folks who are, you know, allies or pro-choice or whatever, that in many ways still, um, still reinforce the idea that black women shouldn't be in control of their own bodies.
Dani (00:26:01):
Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. You're saying messages that come from like within the reproductive rights movement that black women still should not be in control.
Luna (00:26:10):
We're in the pro-choice movement. Uh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Dani (00:26:15):
Mm-hmm. ,
Luna (00:26:16):
.
Dani (00:26:17):
Mm-hmm. . Well, I mean, you know, this might be a little heady, but it's always made a lot of sense to me. One of the things that's, that's unique about the reproductive justice framework is that it's a human rights framework. And one of the reasons that it's important that a lot of those women who are the foremothers had just come back from the UN Conference on women in Beijing is because they were at a human rights conference. Now in the US we have a history of making space. When I say we, I mean kind of like, you know, the over culture, like the US recognizes civil and political rights, freedom to do this, freedom from this and that. Mm-hmm. , we don't recognize, um, social and economic rights. The right to an education, the right to food, the right to housing, the right to clean water.
(00:27:04):
Um, and and what's important about the reproductive justice framework, framework is that it brings in those social and economic rights along with the political and civil rights. Mm-hmm. . So that's why that peace about the rights to pa the right to parent our children in safe and dignified in healthy communities is so important. That's not something you're gonna find traditionally. Now it's changed a lot. Right. But you, I don't, you wouldn't have heard like a Planned Parenthood or a na, were all talking about that piece of the equation like 20 years ago mm-hmm. , um, cause it's, it's human rights. It's the idea that we we're not just like, we're, we don't just have the right to vote. Right. That's a, that's a, you know, that's kind of like the in, in the United States that tho that's how we think of rights. The right to vote, you know, the right to free speech, you know mm-hmm. Freedom of assembly, all these important things, but human like actually thriving in our whole human selves. And like having families that thrive, raising kids that thrive also require rights to certain things like mm-hmm. good schools and clean food and clean water and homes. You know? Yeah. And so that, that's why RJ is like so revolutionary because it's pushing a whole different understanding of life and what we actually deserve and what we can actually organize together and pursue.
Luna (00:28:26):
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Ooh. I love that. Yeah. I love when, I think, when I think about it, and, you know, I've been working with Laugh now for a year, and I think I was, I was on the periphery of a lot of different movements, right. Um, I've been working in like, uh, the consent space, the kind of like sex and sexuality space, L G B LGBTQ advocacy and rights, like racial equity and, you know, combating anti-blackness and all these different d e I spaces. So I've been in, in, in many ways, like connected. But as I've deepened on this journey of reproductive justice, I'm like, this is the most intersectional framework.
Dani (00:29:12):
It's so brilliant. It's so
Luna (00:29:14):
Brilliant. And includes, it includes, it includes all of the above. It's, it's literally that. And I am like, I'm in it.
Dani (00:29:24):
Getting it. I'm like, here I am. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's so, um, it's so important. And I, and I'll say, because I had the, you know, I had the pleasure of coming to the, the block party that you, you know, worked on, um, with Louisiana Abortion Fund. Like, I just, I felt, I mean, and I think at some point we're gonna talk about like, the role of pleasure and joy, but Yeah. You know, that's also to me, just, um, that's also like a part of reproductive justice is can we live? Like, can we just, can we live ? Can we, you know, enjoy time together? Can we have spaces where we say, look at this beautiful child that I helped create. Like, we're gonna play together mm-hmm. in community with other families who we wanna see thrive and grow. And so it was just really nice to, to come to that block party and just, um, observe that element of community building and just like, um, celebrating life, you know, celebrating life and the way that we celebrate life. Not in this like, bizarre, you know, um, kind of fetishization of like life at conception or like whatever it is the right wing is doing , but like actual, you know, like life, like living, thriving. Um,
Luna (00:30:49):
Yeah. So yeah,
Dani (00:30:50):
I just admire that .
Speaker 4 (00:30:52):
We're gonna take a break for a moment for two short messages, but I promise we'll be right back in the south and need an abortion. Give Laugh. A call at eight four four four four abort. That's 8 4 4 4 4 2 2 6 7 8. Laugh provides compassionate affirming support that honors and affirms the dignity of people seeking abortion care. This podcast is produced by Joy Channel. What is Joy Channel? A collection of creatives and change makers that work with organizations and communities towards liberation. We do that by creating content like this podcast or supporting organizations hand-on with training, consulting experiences and parties. We like to throw parties to find out more. Visit us@joychannel.org.
Luna (00:31:42):
I, this is a slight tangent, but I'm curious about your perspective on this. Um, and this is clunky cuz I'm still sitting with this. So I went through, I went through an IVF process.
Dani (00:31:57):
Mm.
Luna (00:31:58):
And I'm always fascinated at around like folks with the anti-abortion conversations and stuff, I'm, I'm always fascinated by the fact that, and when I signed up for this I V F process, they were like, you might generate 16 embryos. What do you wanna do with those embryos? Like, do you wanna discard them? Do you wanna, like, do you wanna donate 'em to, and I was just like, here I am in a space that is costing thousands of dollars for me to have this conversation. Yeah. There is no one out here protesting. There is no, you know, all of these folks are like, life starts at X, Y, z I don't see them outside of fertility centers. I don't see them, uh, jumping in these spaces where there's so much money being put into ivf. And I was literally joking, clowning with a friend Right. Last night cuz I have frozen embryo, but I don't see anybody with protest signs with like cubes of ice being like thawed out. You know what I mean? Like, like
Dani (00:33:07):
These embryos they
Luna (00:33:08):
Need to live. Like I don't, I haven't seen that. I have not, I've never seen that. And I'm curious, like from your perspective, um, what are your thoughts around that? Around like where focus being? Um, yeah,
Dani (00:33:24):
I mean, don't put it past them. Like, let's not count that out, you know, certainly.
Luna (00:33:29):
Right. I'm not trying to give anybody ideas, you know?
Dani (00:33:32):
Exactly. No. And I, I'm trying to think. There are people who are doing great reporting and writing on, um, the ways that like, you know, anti-choice organizations are moving, are, are talking about reproductive technologies and moving into trying to control those areas as well. Um, you know, I think and, and like, it'll just be a matter of time before they figure that out. I think, you know, the reason why, uh, I mean, so much of it is about controlling doing what they can to control poor people's reproductive choices. Right. Which is why like, um, Medicaid coverage of abortion was one of, was like, you know, the high amendment like, uh, excluding, um, Medicaid coverage of abortion was something that, um, if you can figure out how to get state funding out of, you know, if, if you can figure out how to attack state funding as a part of your moral crusade, then that's kind of the first step.
(00:34:29):
That's not to say that they will not find policy ways to go after, you know, reproductive to reproductive technologies as well. Um, and I wish I could mention some of the people who are actually thinking really hard about this stuff. Um, so I could lift up that work, but I can't recall unfortunately. Um, but yeah, I mean, you know, I think you and I were like texting back and forth about, uh, no fault divorce is being, I think you're the person who sent me the link about Yeah. You know, no fault divorce is being one of the, um, going after, you know, these bills that are moving through certain state legislatures, um, to try to reverse access to no fault dis uh, divorce. So we see the ways that these people who have these incredibly, um, in my opinion, retrograde understandings of family and, um, you know, really want to enshrine like patriarchal, um, you know, control over nuclear families as that as the ideal way that we organize ourselves in this country. Um, we see all the ways that they're using policy to try to advance those goals. So I think keeping an eye on, on how they're thinking about reproductive is really important.
Luna (00:35:39):
I think it is too. I just, I think it just strikes me how, and I think it could just be like lack of awareness of science, you know, or being slow to understanding that, um, being in the mix. But I, you know, yeah. I appreciate you lifting up and I know that it's not safe, you know, but I also know that the target being poor folks first Yes. Like, is very real, you know? Yeah. And very felt. Hmm. I'm curious about, so we've talked a little bit about the difference between like, you know, uh, reproductive justice and like abortion rights or reproductive health, like reproductive rights and reproductive justice mm-hmm. . And I'm curious, um, if we can talk a little bit more around your, like, you've been doing this work for, for over a decade, like looking into this for over a decade. I'm curious, like how has it affected you? Like, have you been further radicalized by that initial, like, curiosity around like, learning and exploring things? Like how has it shifted or expanded? You are.
Dani (00:36:50):
Yeah. I mean, thanks, thanks for that question. I don't think, I haven't been asked that question before and I don't think I've really sat with that. Um, you know, well, I guess it's an, this is a good time to talk about my book, which, um, we live for the, we, it's a memoir that I started writing when I was pregnant with Isabelle. Um, I started writing it in the, I really started writing it in the summer of 2016. So I was in my third trimester. I was very pregnant with her. Um, and, you know, in addition to covering reproductive justice organizing, I also, um, have covered black liberation organizing. So, um, I, you know, was covering the, the kind of height of, um, black liberation organizing after the, after the acquittal of, um, um, George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin's, the man who killed Trayvon Martin. Mm-hmm. and I, I dunno if acquittal is the right word, but we know that he walked free, right?
(00:37:50):
I don't know Mm. What the technicality was on which he walked free. But, um, you know, so I was, I was like looking at what the dream defenders were doing in Florida and then, um, the b the b the kind of origins of B Y P 100. And then, um, you know, as things really heated up after Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson, the, um, the really, the birth of Black Lives Matter organizing, I, I did a lot of reporting on, um, what was happening on the ground all over the country in those days. And so, um, when I was pregnant with Isabelle, I realized that I had all these questions, um, that had bubbled up from my years of reporting on reproductive justice organizing and my, and from my years of reporting on black liberation organizing, here I am about to have this black child.
(00:38:38):
I didn't know that she was gonna be a girl. I didn't, um, I didn't know that until she was born. But, um, I was like, what does it mean to parent? How, how should I be thinking about how I'm gonna raise this, this child, um, who is born at this particular moment? And so I, this was also when I was coming into my consciousness of the lack of the black maternal health crisis and, and learning about, um, you know, the racial disparities, like learning that the US is a horrible, you know, is like a very scary place to give birth really for anybody when you compare the US to other, you know, industrialized, um, countries, western countries, but particularly for black women, particularly for indigenous women, it's, you know, our, um, um, you know, our, uh, maternal mortality rates are disproportionately high. So I was coming into like all this consciousness in the, in as a result of reporting and, and also just as a result of living my life.
(00:39:34):
This was the summer of 2016. And so I, I decided that I was gonna write a book about, well, about, um, talking to some of the smartest organizers I knew about how they thought about parenting. Both what they were learning, what they were doing in their work as organizers and experts and thinkers, but also how they brought some of those values into their own, into their lives as parents or grandparents, um, as people who love kids and were raising kids. And so that's what I set out to do. And so I wrote this book that's a me, it's a memoir, it's a reported memoir. And I went back and, you know, interviewed, I'm thinking about people like Monifa Bendle who was with Malcolm X grassroots movement and Moms Rising. And someone who I, you know, knew had been doing incredible work around, um, freeing political prisoners and, um, you know, like police accountability work for many years.
(00:40:30):
And I also knew that she and her husband, Lumumba Mandela, who had been at NAACP Ldf Legal Defense Fund, um, had teenage girls. Um, and I was like, what is it like in their house? Mm. They know all these things. They have all this analysis. How do they, they've decades of work. They were raised by parents who were, who were committed to black liberation in the seventies and eighties. Like, I wonder how they raised their kids, you know? And then I had a long conversation with Mo and asked her a bunch of questions, or, um, somebody like Yamani Hernandez, who was a, um, reproductive justice leader in Chicago. Um, I knew that she was a parent and I had interviewed her for stories, but I was like, she knows all these things about like sexual health and abortion rights. How is she raising her kids?
(00:41:16):
So the book was the way that I tried to, um, learn about how I wanted to be a parent. Um, and it does inform how I parent, you know, um, I think, I think my reporting on these issues, my writing on these issues, it's just opened my eyes to the possibilities. It's like, we don't just have to do what's familiar to us. We don't just have to raise our kids the way we were raised. There are other people trying new things. There are people who are, um, you know, committed to a certain set of values. And if I share those values, I can learn from them. Um, the decisions around school enrollment, you know, where I want my child to go to school, how to make those kinds of decisions, was very informed by the reporting that I did for the book. There's a whole chapter on schools. Um, and I ended up making a decision that I never would've thought that I would make because I would not, I couldn't have foreseen the situation that I was in when I had to make a decision about kindergarten. You know? So it's like, life just comes at you fast, right? We all know that. But I think it was incredibly helpful for me to spend those years doing that reporting because I have this whole, um, network of people who, um, I could turn to, to try to learn something from them.
Luna (00:42:38):
That's amazing. It's amazing because I feel like I, you know, I've, I've dabbled in like one, I create content, I tell stories like Docustories. And I think that it's, there's a way in which like, you can report on something what that you're connected to, and it changes you, you know what I mean? It doesn't just, it's not just like this, this sterile kind of like a casual observer. But what I'm hearing you say is that like, through what you, through what you researched and explored, you built relationships, which is something that I don't hear a lot of folks that like, are journalists or like have this, like, I'm a journalist, you know, I'm a writer. Don't talk about like, the relationships they build over time through the stories that they tell. And so I think that that is really powerful and, uh, like a radical way of, of being that I just wanna highlight. Yeah. Thank
Dani (00:43:44):
You. I mean, I've had to, I've had to make my own way in journalism, like when I was being, when I was getting my journalism education. Cause I did go to J School, you know, it was still that era where we were taught that objectivity, you know, and I'm like doing my quote marks with my fingers, um, was key. And that you were supposed to hold a kind of distance between yourselves and, and your sources. And, and I, I I, I don't wanna totally like disparage that because there is a way that you have a conversation with someone where it's not a conversation. Like, I'm here to hear you. I'm not projecting my experience onto you. You have no responsibility for sitting with or grappling with my experience, my emotions, my thoughts. I am here to report what you are sharing with me about experiences.
(00:44:31):
Right. And that is important. And that's different from just having a conversation with someone. And, but it's also true that, and I think especially because I was connected to organizing work before I became like a newspaper reporter. Um, some of these people I knew before I was a journalist, capital J mm-hmm. , you know? And so, yes, you're right. Like this has been a process of, for some people, not all. Like I have plenty of people who I, my our relationship is sourced and they don't know much about my personal life and I don't know much about theirs. But for some people, you know, it has been years of deepening a relationship. And I, you know, know that, you know, my role is to be a storyteller. And I, and I take reporting very seriously. Um, but I'm also, it feels important to me to acknowledge ways that I've learned from folks and brought their teachings into my, into my life, into my family life.
Luna (00:45:25):
Hmm. Thanks Danny. I'm so glad , I'm so glad. You can just like, name that. Um, yeah. I think, uh, oh, yes. So on that and on that reporting mm-hmm. , this podcast is called The South has the answers, and part of the reason it's named that is directly to push back against a lot of like anti southern sentiment that organizations like Louisiana Abortion Fund feel and experience even in doing their work. I'm curious for you, because you have like a true bird's eye view of like the reproductive justice movement in America, you know, period. What, what is it that you're seeing, um, being done in the South that can be like elevated or lifted up?
Dani (00:46:18):
I mean, so much and it's, I mean, so you, Roe was overturned exactly a year ago. Um, and really what that did was to, you know, elevate states' abilities, state legislature's abilities to, um, you know, make these laws make and pass these laws that, um, restrict our access to abortion. But what has been true is that state legislatures in the South and the Midwest, but certainly in the South, have been doing that work, the slow chipping away at abortion rights for years through these bizarre, you know, laws about, um, you know, the width that hallways need to be in an abortion clinic in order for the clinic to be, you know, passed certain regulations and all of the, the, you know, the, the waiting hours you have to, if you want an abortion, you have to go. And then, but then you have to wait for 72 hours and think about it like all the ways that they have figured that these legislatures throughout the south and the Midwest have figured out how to outlaw abortion without, you know, saying as much outright that's been underway for years and years.
(00:47:34):
And so what that means is that, um, abortion rights advocates and organizers in those states, they've been fighting this fight for a long time mm-hmm. because they had to, they've been on the front lines of these battles. Um, and so, you know, I haven't made my way to Texas to report yet, but I, I really wanna go there and, and actually I really wanna go back to Louisiana, um, because I think it takes to be on the ground with these people who are doing the work there to learn what they're up to, to learn what, and you know this because you work closely with Louisiana Abortion Fund, but you know, to see what they're doing to get people the funds that they need and the flights that they need, or the gas money that they need, the childcare that they need so that they can continue to access abortions when they need them.
(00:48:23):
I also thought about, um, there was a case in Dallas, I think it was in Dallas recently, where, um, a black family had a home birth, but then there was some issue where the newborn, um, I don't know if it was bilirubin, I don't jaundice, it was something, you know, there was some issue which the, it w if, if my memory serves, it was something very common. But because they had had a home birth, the pediatrician, um, I think called child welfare and the newborn was taken from the family and, um, you know, separated from the mother and the, and the father for, I wanna, it was over, I it was weeks I think it was a Oh my
Luna (00:49:05):
Gosh.
Dani (00:49:06):
Yeah. And, and you know, of course the Afia Center, which is a, a, a reproductive justice organization in Dallas was one of the groups that really came to the aid of this family. Um, and that's because the AIAA Center has been doing work in reproductive justice spaces for years. And so that's my, you know, yeah. The South does have the answer because the south has been dealing with oppressive reactionary forces for , you know, for, for so long mm-hmm. . Um, and yeah, I think we would all do well as the, these efforts to restrict, um, access to, you know, healthcare, um, extend and expand all over the entire country. We would do well to look to the people who have been fighting these fights for the longest.
Luna (00:49:56):
Mm. So, well said. And like, like thank you for telling that story. I think it's important to kind of lift up like specific examples of how this is showing up in ways that are kind of like outside of like the everyday consciousness around this. I'm wondering if you can speak to mutual aid and how you see Mutual Aid being a tool that you see folks using in these spaces.
Dani (00:50:25):
Yeah. Well I think, um, um, you know, I know that you have talked about abortion funds as a, as a primary example of mutual aid. Um, and I think that that is such a great example. You know, it's, it's interesting cuz I, mutual aid as a phrase, I think really came into, um, the public consciousness during the pandemic. Um, that's when I remember seeing a big conversation around people really suffering because a lot of people being outta work and, um, having a real kind of immediate economic need. And then people, you know, there were those of us who had more flexibility and were at home and still getting our incomes and people looking for ways to support our neighbors who needed grocery money and that kind of thing. And I think that's a way that we've bail bail funds, right? As we think about, um, the, um, all of the uprisings in the wake of George Floyd's murder, and then suddenly, and again, a lot of us were at home isolating, but something that you could do was to send money to, you know, the Louis the, um, Louisville Bail Fund, for example, all the people who were getting arrested in the wake of Breonna Taylor's, um, killing by police there.
(00:51:43):
So I think there's a way that, like in the past three years, this phrase, mutual aid has really come into mainstream conversation. Uh, but I think a lot like through, um, pandemic support and bail funds, but I really appreciate adding abortion funds to this con like helping people understand that abortion funds are also mutual aid. Um, and I also think there's a way that we've done mutual aid forever. Like it just hasn't been called that necessarily. People haven't used that, that, um, you know, that that phrase, but when I suzu savings, like rotating a rotating lending, right. Which is like, that's, you know, that's something that black people have, um, learned from, um, the continent. Uh, and you know, if you have the idea is like, I have it today and I'm gonna, how can we pull our resources to help the person who needs it?
(00:52:37):
Yeah. And I can expect that that's gonna come back my way when I'm in need. Um, right. Let me hold something. Let me hold . Yeah. Can I hold this till whenever or just like in owe 50 ? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I think at this time where it's easy to feel really, um, kind of frozen and not know what to do because the needs are so great and the pressures are so great and we're in this era of just like incredible repression, um, or, you know, incredible like oppression and the, the, the, you know, these kind of, uh, retrograde forces feel so strong it can, and then I think what people are is like, it's not enough to wait for policy change cuz we'll be waiting for a long time. Like Congress is so dysfunctional mm-hmm. , um, that it's really hard to expect that we're gonna have these big policy wins that get us what we need.
(00:53:39):
And what I am, this is per, I mean, this is like my personal, something I've taken on personally as a way to not feel so afraid and frozen is like looking at how the culture is changing and seeing where we can claim wins and cultural shifts. Um, you know, the number of random people like totally white bread, middle age people who in the past month have been like, I'm going to a drag brunch. You know, it's like blowing my mind. Yeah. Um, and you know, it's just kind of funny, like, okay, go on to your drag brunch. You know, um, and then they're like, and you know, this is so important because of what's been going on in Tennessee. And I'm just like, yes. Like, I might be reading you as just like having this apolitical experience of a drag brunch brunch because you think it's cute, but I'm wrong.
(00:54:31):
Like, I'm not acknowledging that you have been politicized like you are, you care about this issue. Um, the ways that the right wing is going after, you know, drag performers as just like part of their whole anti-trans effort mm-hmm. . So, hey, we can't necessarily always change the laws, but I, I'm seeing the way the culture is shifting and more and more people who you would expect to be on the sidelines of these issues are like, no, I know what's going on. I care and I'm gonna do my little part to show that I'm like standing, um, shoulder to shoulder with people who are in this fight in a more serious way. So I think I, I say that to say like, one of the ways that I fight the freeze is to acknowledge the wins and culture shift and then to give, like, when I have a little more to give, giving it to people who need it.
(00:55:20):
And I think mutual aid in the ways that we're talking more and more about mutual aid is important because it's reminding people that even when you feel like you're too small to make a change, even when you feel like you're too small to make a difference, you can always help, you can always throw down a little bit on like what cause you care about or even just supporting the people around you who need Yeah. You know, so many people are experiencing personal crises right now. So many people are experiencing personal crises alongside the like, political crises. Um, I mean they're all, it's all interconnected, right? Um, and it's been pretty, I think, important to just see the ways that folks are coming together to, to support each other while also realizing that we're not, like GoFundMe has its limits. Like we can't, it is, you know, it's like I'm, I'm aware of the ways that mm-hmm. , we need real structural change and like GoFundMe can't plug the holes of like a broken healthcare system for example. Right. Right. So we have to do our very best to support other, um, in the face of these like, massive challenges.
Luna (00:56:27):
Ugh. That is so one, I love the phrase fight the freeze. Mm-hmm. , I think that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be walking away with that of like noticing cuz it helps me notice like, oh, I feel frozen cuz there's so much going on mm-hmm. and then like that antidote to fight the freeze of like, where, what's the little space you can shift? So I'm hearing so much in that answer of like, the power of community, the power of like, we can't wait, we're not waiting. We have to, this is within hours to control. Yeah. I I also hear like a hopefulness in that. Are you, are you hopeful
Dani (00:57:05):
It's like a real
Luna (00:57:06):
Question. It's such a broad
Dani (00:57:08):
No, I really appreciate the question. I mean, it's, it's good to have this conversation with you, Luna, because even just saying what I just said out loud and our articulating, I'm telling myself like I'm not on high, like delivering some , you know, advice, some pronouncement to like you and your listeners. Like I'm saying it to remind myself cuz I can feel really frozen too. Mm-hmm. , someone asked me recently to write something about, you know, the past year since Dobbs. And I was just like, oh gosh, I don't even know what to say. Yeah. I'm, I'm saying these things to you because it's a reminder that, uh, I also shouldn't be frozen. It could be very easy for me to feel frozen, to feel like, oh my gosh, we know what the problems are and we've been told what the solutions are. So like in black maternal health, for example, luckily this issue has been getting a lot of media attention over the past several years.
(00:58:11):
And luckily there have been a lot of black birth workers and like incredible clin clinicians and researchers and, you know, all these people with all this knowledge who have been lifted up and saying like, this is what we should be doing. These are some potential solutions. So how many more times can we hear the potential solutions? Right. How many more times does, do the solutions need to be laid out? At a certain point it's just a matter of political will. And when we lack the political will, like it can be very easy for that to just send you into freeze because like, what else can be done? Mm-hmm.
Luna (00:58:53):
, I
Dani (00:58:54):
Feel a storyteller. I feel this as, it's like how many more times does the story need to be told? How many different ways can you tell it so that it's going to like, motivate and mobilize the people who are standing in the way of these changes happening? I'm not, I don't know, but you know, when you ask me whether or not I'm hopeful, um, I try to be because I don't because the alternative sounds really bad.
Luna (00:59:18):
Yeah.
Dani (00:59:19):
Hopefully I'll have a long life. I'm in my forties, I have a six year old. Like, I can't just expect to go through the rest of my days on this earth feeling hopeless.
Luna (00:59:30):
Yeah. And so,
Dani (00:59:31):
Um, having some sense of optimism and continuing to convince myself that there are important ways to stay engaged just feels crucial.
Luna (00:59:47):
Mm. I feel that, and part of the reason why I asked that question, are you hopeful? Like , it's coming from a place of like, are you, because I don't know if I am. And I, and I hear different responses to that from like, oh yeah, absolutely. I'm hopeful too. I'm hopeful about a couple of things too. Like, I don't know. And I think it, I really resonate with that. Like I'm, I have to search for hope, like I don't have it. Um, like I, I'm, I'm convinced of the things that I'm doing for myself and others are supporting and creating that world for ourselves. That's one of the things in your book that I read recently that like really slapped me in the face cuz it was like one, I knew you wrote it in 2016 and it's 2023. And in some ways I'm like god damn Danny. But there was this like one line where you're like talking about how in places where there's a rise in fascism, what people do is kind of go inward more more internal. Their worlds get smaller. Yeah. And that's been sitting with me in so many ways and I'm seeing the way over the past seven years, it's like, it almost seems like the streaming has increased.
Dani (01:01:08):
Yes.
Luna (01:01:09):
The conversations around shows have increased. Yes. What are the shows?
Dani (01:01:14):
I'm so glad you're saying this. You're I think you're right. Absolutely. Even
Luna (01:01:18):
With Apple being like, here's these, I I'm like, I'm putting my hands over my face. Like these are the Google, like the, the goggles that you can just be in a little bubble in a world. I'm like, is this what's happening? I, I like read that line and I was like, shook cuz I was like looking around and I'm like, this is what we're doing. It's even what I'm doing now. Like my home is my nest. Right? Yes. I've never put so much into my home before, but now it's like this is my sanctuary, this is what I'm going
Dani (01:01:46):
. Right. No, and it's hard to tell how much of that is like middle age and just being like, well the streets don't have anything for me. Right. Which is just real . It's hard to tell how much, for me it's like about parenting and just being tired. Mm-hmm. . Um, and then how much of it is is like about a political, like a freeze response to the political reality.
Luna (01:02:07):
Right? Yeah. Truly .
Dani (01:02:11):
Yeah.
Luna (01:02:13):
So yeah, that, I mean I'm searching for that hope too. I feel like conversations this mm-hmm bring me to it and rejuvenate me. So I, um, I don't know. I'm just grateful for your time in this conversation today.
Dani (01:02:28):
I am too. And I think you're right. Like I do feel so much more, um, I, yeah, I feel hopeful leaving this conversa and leaving this conversation. And I think it's a reminder to we gotta stay connected to the people who you, you talked about building that world for ourselves, like building that new world for ourselves. I think the best thing that we can do now and anytime is just like create and nourish connections with those people who we know we want to live this life with. Mm-hmm , you know, we wanna support who we want to support us. Um, cuz it's really all we have. That's really all we have in the day to day is like genuine connection and genuine support of one another. So I am really thankful for you and our friendship. Um, and also for this opportunity to talk about these big ideas. It's um, it really means a lot. Thank you.
Speaker 5 (01:03:31):
Oh,
Luna (01:03:31):
Thank you Danny . Thank you.
Speaker 4 (01:03:39):
Special thanks again to our brilliant guest Dani McClain. This has been the South has the answers. A Joy channel production for Louisiana Abortion Fund. To donate to Louisiana Abortion Fund, hit up Louisiana abortion fund.org. Thank you to Red Cypress Consulting for visuals and especially Camille Rand for all your support. I'm your host and executive producer Luna Malborough, the Chief Vibe officer of Joy Channel. Can't let you go without giving another special thanks to the sero tones for this show's groovy theme song. Get free. I'll let you listen to that right now. Please follow them wherever you get your music. Bye.
Speaker 5 (01:04:26):
Music